• mason

  It is not just an insult to Wenger’s intelligence but to everyone’s to pretend that Arsenal do not come in for harder treatment than other teams. They are roughed up.

  How can it be denied when Ricardo Fuller, the Stoke City striker, says: “Some people say before the games, ‘We know how to play Arsenal . . . we have to kick them.’ Nobody in the whole country is upset by that.”

  More revealing still is that such a statement should go unremarked. Kick Arsenal? Well of course you do. You aren’t going to beat them with pretty passing.

  Even Manchester United have resorted to such roughhouse tactics against them on occasion, notoriously for the visit of the “Invincibles” in 2004. There is an acceptable limit for intimidation, and United strayed very close to that line.

  This is the background against which he wants Shawcross’s crunching tackle on Ramsey on Saturday to be re-examined; and the widespread view, which I share, that the challenge did not intend to cause such grievous injury does not make the inquiry less valid.

  Wenger’s point is that terrible accidents are more likely to happen if one team are more intent on kicking the other than they are in their other 36 Premier League matches — if one side are furiously revved up to get in the other’s faces and to disrupt them by overtly physical means.

  Does that make Stoke — and Bolton Wanderers, Blackburn Rovers, etc — too hard? Or Arsenal too soft? Wenger may be prone to bouts of self-serving cant, but as Ramsey sits in a hospital bed we owe it to the Welshman to stop and consider the argument.

  After all, no one in Spain kicks Barcelona. Few teams in La Liga can match them for skill and verve, but you don’t hear of opponents concluding that booting them is the only option.

  I checked with a Spanish journalist yesterday who couldn’t recall anyone talking about kicking Barcelona out of a match — although he did remember one attempt at roughhouse tactics.

  When Juande Ramos took a depleted Real Madrid to the Nou Camp in December 2008, he instructed his players to get heavily stuck in. Sergio Ramos dumped Lionel Messi on the floor several times, but Real lost the game and it was seen as a one-off, the tactics of last resort.

  Kicking to stop a team when necessary isn’t the culture in La Liga, but, sometimes, particularly with Arsenal in opposition, it is ours.

  We celebrate the physicality in the game, we breed players who thrive in a tough environment. This is English football, warts and all, and we might make the case that Wenger knows the league, with its expectations of furious physicality. We may conclude that he should buy his own enforcers.

  But we should also acknowledge what Barcelona, what Spain, what the rest of Europe might say if they heard that Pep Guardiola’s team were going to play another club — let’s call them Stoke — and the pre-match talk was full of threats about roughing them up and hitting them with aggression.

  It is a fair guess they would not shrug their shoulders, but be appalled. And they might think it beyond a coincidence if serious injury resulted.

• http://kierandelaney.net kierandelaney.net

  Interesting article Dev – few points though:
  1) The player didn’t break his leg and in fact went on to finish the game.
  2) It wasn’t Uniteds Reserves, he was on loan.

  We need to try and stick to the facts otherwise we’re as bad as the lunatics in the media.

  That still makes it 2 breaks in 4 years though, and if you’ve broken 2 legs at the age of 22 you really should be thinking long and hard about your style of play.

  What’s even worse than the challenge is the vile stuff peddled in the media as you’ve mentioned, about how Wenger should shut up moaning (Collymore) etc. Thankfully Martin Samuels (I know, a sensible article in the Daily Mail, mental) amongst others are rightly pointing out the challenge as wrong and the sort of thing we need to take out of the game. It’s a shame the level headed voices are being shouted down by morons and idiots trying to gain exposure.

  Old Baconface hasn’t helped either by calling Shawcross with his support – the man is a thunderc*nt, and probably still sucking lemons after Rambo turned him down to join the Arse.

  This whole “Shawcross isn’t that type of player” argument is plain wrong, as anyone can see, but also elementary – a tired driver who falls asleep at the wheel and kills a family of 4 on the motorway didn’t mean it, but it doesn’t make it any worse. If you consistently enter 50/50 challenges overly hard with your eyes closed (check shawcross’s face in the photos) you have to take responsibility for the repurcussions.

  You’d also have to be a total lunatic and a horrible human being to deliberately injure another footballer – to my knowledge only a handful of people have ever admitted to that (Roy Keane, surprise surprise) so again it’s a pointless argument whether there was malice or not. Of course there wasn’t malice – but there was a level of incompetence that should not go unpunished.

  But banning a player for 12 months? That sets a dangerous precedent and a slippery slope – for exactly the same reason UEFA could not uphold Eddies ban for diving, the FA could not possibly introduce a retroactive ban (a ban called after the event) without also citing other dangerous challenges – the challenge from Birmingham (i forget the player) and Ballacks ludicrous challenger from behind that rightly saw him sent off at the weekend.

  The best we can hope for is a rule introduced over the summer to address these challenges.

  But that won’t happen as long as Shawcross has people queing up to defend him and the usual media dickheads set up as apologists for the great british sport of kicking Johnny Forro.

• alfonzo

  Yes, some may argue that Shawcross didn’t intend it, that he isn’t malicious, that he isn’t that type of player. Well, someone who was speeding down the road and then hit a little boy didn’t intend to do that either but he did hit the boy and is responsible. That’s how I see it. This was no accident. And it’s unacceptable that we’ve suffered such horrific career-threatening injuries: Diaby (1 May 2006), Dudú (23 February 2008) and now Ramsey (27 February 2010). Is it any wonder that Wenger cries foul?

  And we were denied at least three penalties. Bloody referee.

• Nick

  I think that a punishment of maybe a 10 game ban would be acceptable. That would be long enough that players need to truly consider the ramifications of their actions. In 10 games your team can drop a hell of a lot of points and lose out on a title race, Europe, etc. That is if the tackle was deemed as intentional and with vicious intent (i.e. coming in from behind or the side with studs showing and not touching the ball, or if the players have been battling all game with multiple warnings from the Ref).

  The idea of a duration of injury ban is very over the top. It leaves out the possibility that it truly was an accident. Bear in mind you’re never likely to get an admission that from someone that they went in with the goal of destroying someone, even though we can all see it. Players like Vinnie Jones, Roy Keane, Joey Barton and to some aspect Patrick Vieira who have repeatedly and obviously tried to take someone out should be watched and under as much scrutiny as those who are penalized by the refs for being a known diver.
  Either case truly takes away from the beautiful game and cheats the fans. We all love the game and we all want our teams to win, but there is a limit to which we will put up with to achieve that victory. Well, most of us have a limit. Not those c*nts who were cheering Rambo’s injury as he was carted off. They have no compassion and IMO no true love of the game. They want to associate themselves with a team to fill some void in their meaningless lives and live vicariously through the win and loss columns because they could never play the game.

• Pete

  Well said guys. People seem to be getting sidetracked with the issue of whether Shawcross intended to injure Ramsey or not. Does the intention really matter when the result is that a young player is seriously injured? I think not. Had the situation been the complete opposite, ie Shawcross blatently attempting to cause harm but Rambo coming though the challenge ok, people would still be making excuses for the defender.

  For the record I personally don’t think the challenge was intentional, but in some ways thats actually worse, as it opens up the can of worms that is reckless challenges in the Premier League, something which is common among certain teams/managers tactics. Recklessness disregards intent, as it is still putting yourself and others in needless danger. And I don’t know about you but I always thought that part of the job description for a Defender was the ability to tackle cleanly. Shawcross’ challenge on Ramsey was anything but.

  As a governing body, the FA (sometimes I’m convinced that stands for “F*** All” as thats all the seem to do) should be looking into reckless play in general, not just the Ramsey injury, so as to avoid similar incidences in future.

  Football is a physical game and I love the Premier League for living up to that aspect, but doesn’t common sense say that if the English game is more physical than other leagues than surely along with that comes more responsibility from players/managers/clubs, refs/lines men/governing bodies, to responsibly and adequately deal with that extra physicality?

  What gets me most with the Ramsey injury is Shawcross’ decision making. Something is seriously wrong when it doesn’t occur to a 6f’5in grown man that charging blindly into a 5’10 19 year old kid might be dangeeous. Reckless challenges, whether they’re intended to harm or not, places yourself and other professionals in unnecessary danger.

  Having said all that, Shawcross shouldn’t be banned for the duration that Ramsey is out. But I do feel that clubs whose tactics are over physical and whose players do cause injuries such as these should be heavily fined by the FA. A 3 game ban for a red card isn’t enough for an incident like this, a player can get that punishment for swearing at a ref. Hit clubs where it hurts the most, their pockets. I wouldn’t be surprised if managers like Sam Allerdyce soon start employing different tactics on the pitch afterwards.

  Get well soon Rambo.

• devday

  @K/Delaney – Thanks for your feedback Kieran, you’re right on both accounts re the points you’ve made (break & loan (Antwerp I think)…)…

  Re: the ban, if someone knew he could get a year’s ban if he broke someone’s leg, then surely they wouldn’t go in so hard right?

• Jeffo

  @Dev In answer to your question i am welsh and i am incredibly pissed off about this situation, we have suffered from a lack of quality players with a sprinkling of talented individuals for too long. At long last we have a lot of promising young individuals coming through and this bodes well for the future. However on the day Shawcross became englands new hope in defence the motherf*cker has crippled Wales most talented star of the future.

  Next year Wales play England in the euro qualifiers i know a lot of you out their are england fans but i truly hope that Aaron comes back succesfully and runs rings round that twat shawcross and makes him look a complete gimp in an England shirt (and sends him home crying for a different reason).

  Tony Pulis is welsh and right now i could shove the fucker off Porthcawl pier for his glowing defense of his man (i do not use the player purposely).

  And Alex Taggart ferguson where’s your support for the lad with the broken leg who you tried so hard to sign???????

  C**T.

  Rant over i just hope the boys kick on and win the league for Ramsey.

  Come on you Gunners!!!!!!!!!!!!

• goonerman

  I am randomly looking around the internet late tonight anf a few papers are reporting that wenger has said he is still tracking felipe melo and it does seem a real possibility as he hasnt settled in a juventus and to be honest as were going to be without aaron and we all have slight question marks over denilson id welcome him as a member of the team! a midfield of ces song diaby and melo obviously they cant all play at once but if we are short at cb song can fill in and we have a perfect replacement for the cdm role! obviously its just speculation but i like the thought of adding that kind of steel to the team!!

• http://kierandelaney.net kierandelaney.net

  Re: the ban, if someone knew he could get a year’s ban if he broke someone’s leg, then surely they wouldn’t go in so hard right?

  Dev, you’re mostly right although I still think people will go for 50:50 challenges – everyone will agree that Alonso/Fabregas clash that left Fabregas out for a large amount was a 50:50 ball, prefectly executed tackles on both sides – would you argue that Alonso should be banned? Did the responsibility lay equally at Fabregas feet, they both went in hard…

  More importantly, this is something that really can only be implemented going forwards for reasons I’ve mentioned above – of course nothing will happen until Rooney breaks his leg, then and only then when the FA consider punitive action.

• dada

  http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?from=rss_Sport&set_id=6&click_id=4&art_id=iol1267434007358M635&page_number=3 … This article has much credit for me, this is the same pundit that said Shawcross would commit another leg breaking challenge in his career after the Jeffers one and funny enough he pendicted it right. Before, I get someone on my back I understand Shawcross was about to do a 360 turn on the ball but Ramsey just beat him to it which led to shawcross being half way up his shin. You can’t really say Ramsey lunged which resulted in him being halfway up his shin as you can clearly see the ball in the picture when contact was made so either way Shawcross was going over the ball even if he beat ramsey to it. It is just interpretation to which side of the fence you sit and why this article is quite good.

• alfonzo

  What kind of society do we live in today?

  I am frankly astonished at the reaction to Ramsey leg break. Listening to Talk Spite radio last night my jaw nearly hit the floor. Jason Cunty although admitting he had not seen the tackle predictably defending Shawcroft, that utter fucker Stan Collymore – “it’s part of football”. I even heard a caller this morning claim that the leg breaks are perhasp the result of Wengwer’s training methods which somehow make our player vulnerable to leg breaks. Yes somehow this caller was place the blame at Wenger’s door. It’s so retarded I can’t fathom the logic.

  Look – if I get in a car pissed out my head and mow someone down and find myself in tears in the aftermath does that make it ok? I did not intend to do it but I. Society today is way to fucking liberal, the rights of the perpetrator over the victim. People need to stand up and face the consequences of their actions.

  What a load of fucking bullshit, I’m not fooled by the tears. Had this been a Johnny Foreigner Arsenal player breaking Rooney or Lampard’s leg this episode would be being covered in a totally different light.

  Jason Cunty, Stand Collymore, Talkspite Radio you should be ashamed of yourself.

• dada

  @ alfonzo:

  The 3 leg breakers we have received over the last 4yrs have come against teams managed by british managers plus walcott getting cropped last season against Birmingham(again),it puts sad look at british managers.It seems that home grown managers can’t or won’t learn from there foreign counter parts and reject the ideal of playing football with sweeping passing moves and skill but stick with outdated and basically thug mentality of kicking skilled,better players and the big boot up front . We constantly witness the likes of Pulis,Bruce,Allardyce etc put out teams which are in some cases no better than a local Sunday league team whose aim is not to win 1st but to hurt the opposition in a way to prevent losing without creating a chance of there own.These are managers who played in a era where booting people,pulling back and no skill required reigned and anyone with skill was treated like a leper and a target and hold dear that’s how the game should be played.

  The media is full of ex-footballers who have done fuck all in there careers,people like Collymore,Cundy,Redcrapp,Earle etc who with there average talent won nothing and have no intelligence to do anything else have jumped on the pathetic anti-Arsenal bandwagon for what i believe is a vendetta, as it took a foreign manager-Arsene Wenger- to change the way football is played in this country for the better and that all top clubs have adopted this way and it wasn’t a Englishman.I also believe its a vendetta as arsene brought in unknown foreign players to upstage and win the P/L with better style of football at the cost of there beloved laughapool and manure,the criticism of English players by wenger also gripes the media as it’s been proven true on numerous occasions,the british media etc have this stupid mentality that anything foreign is ridiculed but anything British is the right way…funny how we haven’t won a international trophy for 44yrs damned foreigners.

  The responsiblity for Shawcross’s tackle rests with outdated,talentless and ignorant managers and a media which doesn’t like it’s favourites being upstaged and uses there format to promote a style of football which should be left in the 70′s and 80′s but while praising it being used against us on the other hand deplore it against the likes of manure etc.I yearn for the day a pundit or reporter writes or says it how it is and not tow the media line of praise these but slag of these.

• hello

  .
  the fact that makes things a lot simpler is if Ramsey had jumped out of the way of the tackle Shawcross would have booted the ball out of the stadium!! What the hell was he thinking!!

  Poor Aaron… all our thoughts are with you buddy…

• grahm

  Much has been made of Shawcross being a nice man and therefore not to blame. And behind this has comes the argument that all the fuss is about nothing because what Shawcross did was a legitimate tackle.

  So let us clear this up for once and for all. At least until the next Arsenal player gets kicked to pieces.

  To show this is not about my personal opinion I will start with some extracts from the law book and the guidelines that Fifa gives to referees all over the world and so this also is valid for English refs.

  From the Fifa rule book and guideline to referees :

  Charging an opponent

  The act of charging is a challenge for space using physical contact within playing distance of the ball without using arms or elbows.

  It is an offence to charge an opponent:

  • in a careless manner

  • in a reckless manner

  • using excessive force

  “Using excessive force” means that the player has far exceeded the necessary use of force and is in danger of injuring his opponent.

  • A player who uses excessive force must be sent off.

  So let’s take the tackle from Shawcross. He has far exceeded the necessary use of force and has not only brought an opponent in danger, no he actually has injured him. He should have been given a red card and so the ref did the only thing he can do in those circumstances : give him a red card.

  However hard you may try to give another explanation to the rules, there is no other explanation possible. He used too much force and injured an opponent by using this force.

  Using excessive force is ALWAYS a foul. It can NEVER be legitimate. And if you still think otherwise than I really hope that you are not a ref and have to see for the health of players during a game.

  So did ref Walton act correctly AFTER the tackle ? Yes he did. Could he have prevented it ? Yes he could.

  If you came to this article only came to read on how the rules are, you can stop right now. But if you want to know how I take on refereeing and try to implement the instructions handed over by Fifa to all the refs in the world you can read on and see in the next game you visit if the ref is considering what I think is the right way to do it.

  The main task as a ref is looking after the fact that both teams play within the rules.

  You mostly just do this by punishing the fouls you see. Blowing on your whistle when you see a foul happening is just a way of letting someone know that what you are doing there is dangerous or against the law and you will be punished with a free kick and/or a card.

  If you do this than you are already on your way to being a good referee. But that is not enough.

  One of the most important things of being a ref for me, and this is also the case for every ref, is the fact that you have to feel responsible, not only for the game itself, but also and most important for the safety of everyone involved in the game. This is something that doesn’t attract much attention but it is one of the most important tasks you have as a ref. You have to try to start a game with 22 fit and healthy players and at the end of the game when you still are with 22 fit and healthy players you have done a great job.

  Now this is a bit more difficult. Because you have to take notice of something that can be hidden at first sight. It has a lot to do with feeling that “there is something going on”. And sometimes in the games that I referee this can be a very difficult thing to do.

  Last year I came to a game and from the first minute I felt that every little foul or even a small push got a heavy reaction from both teams. If you feel this than you have to change your game as a ref and I started punishing every little foul and was running like a madman to be within meters distance where fouls were committed so I could be right in the middle if things should run out of hand.

  At half time I asked the one of the officers of the home team what was the matter with this game and he told me that the same fixture last year has been ended with a player being kicked in hospital and as massive fight on the field and even a massive fight in the canteen after the game. Even the police had to come over to arrest some people.

  So at that stage I knew what I had already felt that there was something going on. So I had already given a lot of yellow cards and in the second half some players went off with two yellow cards but everything ended in a normal way, no injuries, no fighting on the field or in the canteen.

  But when you are a ref in the EPL or in other top leagues you have the luxury that you can be able to know that something could be going on. When a manager or a player openly says in the press that they will kick the others than you know what you can expect and then you have to take this in mind and when you see that they do what they have said you have to stop them at once.

  You let those players know that you are there to protect (according the Fifa rules and guidelines) and let them know that they will have to play according to the rules or otherwise you will sent them off the field.

  If a team comes out in the open and says that they will kick their opponents you can even call over the captains (always both together) before the game and tell them you will not allow that. And if they do…just punish it like you should.

  But even if Walton had no knowledge of this, (it could be that on no-match days he lives on another planet), even then he had to see that it was coming. He let go some tackles before that could have endangered other players but didn’t because of the Arsenal players being able to jump out of the way.

  Let me just say that if you throw yourself with two feet at an opponent it is always a foul and even if the opponent escapes by jumping high and doesn’t get touched, it still is a foul.

  And I feel that because he let go some earlier possible dangerous challenges (always to be punished by a free kick and a yellow card according the rule book) that after a moment the players feel that they can do whatever they want. And this caused the challenge from Shawcross and where I feel the ref is responsible.

  I must say that in my whole career as a ref, I never had such an incident on my playing field. I’d better touch wood now! Yes I had injury’s on my field. Players that have twisted their knees, two players clashing heads in a fair duel and blood pouring out. Those things yes, but never had such tackles on my field because from the moment I see a potential dangerous tackle I stop play even when the player isn’t touched. And when players ask me why I stopped the game, for the last 2 years I have said (in Dutch of course): “No Eduardo on my field” and they all know what I mean and know I will not tolerate those tackles.

  And if you now should start thinking : “Walter is the best referee in the world” I can only say: I am not. I can make mistakes, but I will not let dangerous tackles go. I just try to be correct in every game. Maybe it helps me a lot that every time when I put on my socks I have to look at my right leg which has a scar from my ankle that goes up almost to my knee and before every game I look at it and think to myself: “Not on my field”.

  Maybe they should only allow refs on the field that have suffered those kind of injuries themselves so that we can ban the dreadful tackles we have seen too much and some even unpunished. Maybe I do my own little crusade as a ref but as long as I don’t have such incidents on my field, I really think I am doing it the right way as Fifa has meant it to be

• andrew

  @ grahm

  thanks for the insight from a ref’s perspective.

  all this talk about whether it was a fair challenge or not seems a bit moot to me. if you can snap another player’s shin (two bones) then it seems obvious that maybe you used too much force in the tackle. we can see clearly from the replay that shawcross swung through aaron’s shin with such force that his lower leg gruesomely flopped around mid-air. i understand those who are suggesting that it was a 50/50 tackle but, man, the sheer force and the follow through were meant for one thing only- to send a message to “soft” arsenal. well, we’ve got the message now!

• manoo

  This ITV moron of a comentator said walcott is looking rusty in the engalnd game. Hes done more than anyone else on the pitch- putting it on a plate for lampard, who skied over. COmplete twats on ITV- completely getting a boner when rooney touches it, HES DONE NOTHING. maybe walcott is rusty, but hes doing better than anyone else. ARGHH. I hate these twats in the media. Fuking average knowledge of football. Jumping on any bandwagon in the media.

• goonerman

  lmao i have to agree with your point about rooney he touches the ball and the commentator said something like ohh my god its a death touch from rooney! he controlled the ball for god sake and then he put a header high and wide but it was so typically rooney and it was so close! they are mugs and walcott is trying his best and he is making the runs with no delivery gettng to him! althouhg i do think he needs to chill a bit

• Mark Elt

  Just to point out that Shawcross didn’t break Jeffers’ leg either, so that’s one break in four years, not three. That’ll be the same number as Abou Diaby then. Go get him banned as well.

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